You all know I love Alias, ABC, JJ, the cast and the writers. I have a huge amount of respect for their years of hard work and dedication- but I suppose I am feeling a little disgruttled about all of our hardwork and dedication. This finale was suppose to be the pay off and it felt like betrayal to me.
I understand that many of you want to love the finale, that you refuse to look at it in a negative light because it would mean that your love for the show was meaningless, pointless and unimportant. This post is not intended to change your mind. It’s not intended to make you feel bad about liking, loving or feeling satisfied by the ending. This post is merely a recap of my ideas and thoughts on the finale.
The final hour was to be THE hour. The pace picked up, the music was cued and then I think I fell into a deep spiral of disappointment, depression and desire to kill.
Love Lost
First, it was a cloud of sadness that seemed to take over- that sadness then morphed into only what I can explain as “I HATE LAUREN” anger! From there, Starbucks Mom and I had a hard finding anything remotely Alias or entertaining about the whole finale.
I felt the writing was haphazardly formed on pages- loose ends were not tied, but cut in order to meet the time restraint and at an attempt to satisfy. We here at Let’s Talk have been piecing together the complex and creative puzzle of Alias from day one. The twists and turns, the shock and awe-we have reviewed, rehashed and reexamined every last detail from every season, storyline and character. Now, I can mostly certainly say, the writers did not. If they had- then I think we would have seen an entirely different Alias finale.
Many of you posted that perhaps our own exciting, deep and complex theories here on the blog set us up for disappointment. We expected great things. We expected closure and answers and WHY WOULDN’T WE? The writers of ole gave us the meat. They built the expectation on their brilliant writing, their puzzling clues and their outrageous cliff-hangers. Not to mention the promotions!! What happened to the couch-gripping moments (Sydney defusing a bomb buried in a grave- Jack facing Geiger in the torture room- Vaughn being caught in the Mueller Device flood)? They disappeared- right down the tube.
There are no excuses- ABC Executives are not an excuse, time limitations are not an excuse. Alias has had plenty of finale episodes (hello, Season 1 and 2!!) that packed as much action, suspense and drama as any full length feature film. Alias has never had a problem with details, with fill and fast pace and last night it felt as if the show took a snooze. If you and I and Joe Blow can come up with 14 alternative endings during one hour of SpyChat with punch and fire and enormous amounts of WOW- then why can’t a room full of paid, professional writers do the same? I am just at a loss for words!
For the Love of Rambaldi
Most of this lack of detail comes from the Rambaldi storyline. In season 1 we learned about a prophet who lived 500 years ago and his ideas and designs about using technology to get closer to God. His role grew as we learned about SD-6, the Alliance and Sloane’s obsession with finding Rambaldi’s truth. We were thrown for a loop when we found out that Sydney was part of Rambaldi’s prophecy- that she was the “woman here depicted” who would save the world from “utter desolation.”
From El Dire, we learned that Rambaldi’s message was for peace. We learned that Sydney had a sister, the Passenger, who also had a special connection to Rambaldi and the prophecy. The definition of the notorious symbol for Rambaldi was described to us by Sydney, as a battle between the Chosen One and Passenger- a fight that would come down to a simple sphere. The clock, the cube, the manuscript, the green fluid, the hourglass, El Dire, the Rambaldi DNA, the Sphere of Life, Page 47, the Horizon and the countless other artifacts became pieces of the puzzle. What was the point of all globe-trotting and artifact stealing? What was the reason behind the number 47? The answers seemed to be buried along with Sloane.
Inconsistency and plot holes are one thing, season to season, but episode to episode is just plain laziness. Though we’ve seen little of Irina over the years, the woman we’ve always known as Sydney’s mother and international criminal was not the woman we saw last night. Her feelings about Sydney and Nadia have always been clear. She always loved her daughters, always tried to protect them, even when she was using them for your own gain. She was never a strong, whole-hearted believer in Rambaldi, but more interested in learning about the roles her daughters played in his prophecy. Somewhere in the frenzy of the final moments, we lost the meaning of Irina’s truth- “The Truth Takes Time.” Well, time is up!
Now we will never know how Irina’s capture by Elena was connected to Irina’s endgame. Did she merely need to get rid of her sister to fulfill her own evil endgame? If her intention was eternal life, what was the point? She didn’t have a motivation to live forever outside of evil- she had nothing to live for- no family, no love. Where had she been all those years? What was she working all? All of this was for a little red sphere with live-forever juice??
As for Sloane and his obsession-when did Rambaldi go from being about “faith, peace, love, and eternal life” to the billions of dollars he would receive from the reconstruction of the cities he planned to bomb? He repeatedly spoke of the “greater good” and even continued to drink large amounts of water, which only lead us back to the harmonious affects of the Mueller Device and the peace it would bring. Sloane has always had access to large amount of money- the Alliance, the Covenant, P5 were all big high rolls with cash and power. Sloane wiped them out, how much more power can you get?
Even some of the flashbacks in Sydney’s life seemed inconsistent. Jack seemed surprised that Sydney was able to piece together the complex puzzle at such a young age. I always assumed that Jack’s intended use of Project Christmas as a way to protect Sydney from the life of spydom. He wanted her to be able to withstand torture, physical and mental and to identify traitors like Irina and Sloane. Jack had always stated that he had never intended for Sydney to be involved with the CIA- he even mentioned it in his last words to her. That would suggest, along with Sydney’s flashback meeting with Sloane, that she herself chose the life of a spy which takes away from her character. She blamed Jack for taking away her choices in life.
Also, Sydney’s role in the Rambaldi scheme changed. Sloane had always been protective of Sydney- he always said that he loved her like a daughter and that she had some purpose. Why would Sloane keep her around if she was the Chosen One, the one who would stop him?
A couple random loose ends:
-If P5 used Sydspinoza to lure Sydney into P5, what was the point? Why did P5 need Sydney? What was their endgame? We won't ever know because P5 is dead!
-What about Renee? Was she merely the vessel for the chip that would lead to the bunker?
-Who was the Cardinal?
-Who was the mole inside MI5?
-Where is Katya? She is the last surviving Derevko and she's just as dangerous as the others.
-Who was DeSantis, how and why was he in that cryogenic-box?
-How did BV and Renee's know that Renee and Vaughn would find each other?
-What was SAB47?
Where is the Love?
I will not completely disregard the last hour- I will not denounce it for all eternity (no pun intended). There is plenty that I enjoyed about the final 60 minutes of Alias:
1. I enjoyed the return to micro self storage. I will forever be in love with that dank, dirty will chain linked storage room.
2. I loved the flashbacks:
-Young Sydney piecing together the puzzle.
-The much-anticipated return of good old Francie and her playful relationship with Sydney.
-The blow up between Sydney and Jack about her job at Credit Dauphine. -Sydney’s meeting with Sloane about her promotion and advancement at SD-6.
These were all very important flashbacks that helped us to better understand Sydney’s position, her recruitment and personal decisions about becoming an agent. I will get back to this later…
3. I loved Sark pulling the gun on Vaughn, and Jack pulling the gun on Sark and then Sloane’s gofers pulling their guns on Jack. So classic!
4. Vaughn and Sark’s little fight- “YOU SHOT ME!”
5. I loved the torture of Kelly Peyton. How fabulous was it to see her squirm over the snake? To me, that made her human. That made her more complex. And yahoo Rachel, a little payback is always great!
6. Jack’s death- though sad, was very important to the end. He was finally able to take responsibility for the life he had chosen for himself and Sydney and by stopping Sloane from wreaking more havoc.
7. And who could not love little Jack and Izzy, on the beach with mom, dad and Uncle Dixon? It was precious, was it not?
8. Sloane spending all of eternity in a cave under a rock was not the most creative or clever way to punish Alias's number one spy villian, but I can live with that.
I know I said I would be satisfied if the writers left some questions unanswered, but as far as I am concerned they didn’t answer any! There was no nice little package with a bow! Yeah, sure Vaughn, Syd and the kiddies are safe at the beach- but Dixon wants their help finding Sark and Izzy is a super genius? I know, spin off material is great- but it was like, okay, “see ya next week for the conclusion of Alias: The Made for TV Movie.” BOO!
All of this leads to one large question from a writer’s point of view-
IS THIS WHAT JJ INTENTED FOR HIS MEGA HIT SHOW?
OKAY- hit me with it! I am prepared! Ready, aim, fire!
37 comments:
Oooh, GirlScout, I see now why you were so upset with this hour!!! However, I have found satisfying answers to some of your questions, and I'd just like to share. Some of this I have already posted, but it applies well here:
People were furious with "My name is not Michael Vaughn," too, but with more explanation it is no longer an issue. We can reconcile what we know now with the information we already have.
Irina did not turn into a psycho freak in the final season. She has been that same psycho freak the entire time! She is an expert at manipulating people. We've known better since she walked into the scene at the end of season 1 than to take anything she said at face value, and had that reinforced OVER AND OVER again throughout season 2.
Yes, she shut down Elena, but that was because Elena's plan would have destroyed her own. She wanted the world the way it was so she could take control of it, Elena wanted an apocalypse. Of course she helped take her down.
And in spite of her power hungry ways, Irina DOES love Sydney and Jack. She saved Sydney's baby, and at the end, "In spite of all of this, I really do love you." It was the same for Sloane. He really did love Nadia, however he was too hungry to stop himself. I believe Irina did love Sydney, but nobody was going to stand in her way. It was her hunger for the power the Horizon offered that ended her life anyway. Sydney didn't kill her.
I believe the ending can be reconciled with the past. She used everyone for her own purposes, kiling her sister and manipulating Jack and Syd. I don't see a plot hole here, or any inconsistency. And remember, although Jack said SLOANE was the one who wanted to profit, it was actually Irina. Sloane traded those missiles for the Horizon! He was after immortality, Irina wanted to seize the power.
The power was not Sloane's main endgame...he was after immortality. Hence he gladly gave Irina what she wanted in exchange for the Horizon...not realizing that Irina had hired Sark to steal it from him in the end anyway.
Irina was after immortality AND power. This was her end game the entire time. She was involved with Prophet 5 the entire time, and her entire search this entire 5 seasons long was to end up in the position we found her at in the end. She had immortality with the Horizon, and she had Prophet 5's control over the world.
We (being the Americans we are) incorrectly assumed "the greatest power" referred to the USA...kind of arrogant, yes? Irina became the greatest power! Imagine...an immortal being with control over the most powerful 12 nations on the planet. And Sydney rendered the greatest power unto utter desolation. This was the purpose of the globe-trotting, to get these artifacts and put Irina where she was.
Strangely enough, Rambaldi WAS about peace and immortality...twisted followers like Irina, Elena, and Sloane used his prophecies to try to advance their own endgames...not Rambaldi's. Rambaldi created a formula that would re-engineer the species into a more docile and peaceful species, and when he realized his red ball could turn them into homicidal maniacs, he made a cure! Every organization twisted Rambaldi's work into something he never intended...and he foresaw Sydney would bring about every one of their demises!
Sorry for the length of this post, but I truly believe the Rambaldi mythology was very nicely "wrapped up." All of my questions were answered, and when explained this way, make perfect sense to me. I too am ready for the "Ready, Aim, Fire!" You have 2 points of view here...let us have it! :)
Paul
Paul I don't think anyone ever considered or related the greater good as refering to America. I am so confused by that statement?
No, sadly, I didn't really feel full when the series finally ended, and I totally agree with you.
What the heck happened with Irina after Season 4? There wasn't enough of her in Season 5 to really wonder why she was portrayed as the ultimate villian to the endgame. There was definitely not enough development with her character, and I wished they showed more of her this season to explain why. But respectfully out of Lena Olin's wishes, she wanted to remain on the East Coast with her children.
And Rambaldi...??? What happened to its significance? It all seemed to have went down the drain after last season, and everything else that didn't fit into Season 4 was thrown into the finale. As a die-hard Alias fan, I wasn't really convinced at all with what occurred in these last few eps regarding the Rambaldi plot. I seriously thought Rambaldi was over, until the writers wanted a kick-ass Sea. 4 season finale about Vaughn not being Vaughn at all, and he investigating into Prophet 5.
I feel like the writers have been kind of pulling our strings with the storylines bet. 4 and 5 because of outside influences (Vartan breaking up with Jen and thought he didn't want to be on the show), just as it seems to be with Lost with the deaths of Ana Lucia and Libby (both caught with breaking the law and thus ousted). That's why I feel like Season 5 wasn't really an "honest" season, despite the fact that they try their hardest to return to the show's roots after failed attempts to revv up audience numbers in the previous seasons. While I accepted and embraced the new characters, ultimately in the end, it wasn't enough. So the timing was right to finally end it, although they did an okay job of doing it.
Regardless of the criticism I put into this, I still love the series with all my heart, but I didn't like the inconsistencies and the hastiness put into "All the Time in the World".
I largely agree with girlscout. At the end of the show, my reaction was huh? What was that stuff with the amulet? What was Syndey not supposed to see? And I thought Irina was a different person in the finale. Her "endgame" of immortality and power doesn't justify all the obtuse lines she has used for the other seasons.
I do think, however, that her line "the truth takes time" refers to her realization that she could not be both an agent and a mother, as she told Sydney at her delivery. THAT is the only line of her's that seems wrapped up to me. The line fits nicely with Sydney's newfound change: she too, cannot be a mother and an agent. (How can she continue to risk her life if she wants her daughter to have a mother?)
Overall, I was disappointed by the ending. The "eternal life" as the final Rimbaldi prize for Sloane is lame. He's talked about that and in the end of the Slone/clone episodes, he implied that Rimbaldi is about much more than immortality (as he pummels the clone's henchman).
For me it comes down to Tom Cruise. He pulled JJ Abrams away from Alias. If it hadn't been for MI:3, I'm sure Abrams would have written the finale, even if he was busy with LOST. And that is how it should have been: he wrote that pilot which hooked us all, he would have wrote a suitable bookend of a finale. As it is, the authors of the finale seemed to have forgotten the first four years.
Michael C
The prophecy reads, "This woman here depicted will possess unseen marks, signs that she will be the one to bring forth my works. Bind them with fury, a burning anger unless prevented, at vulgar cost, this woman will RENDER THE GREATEST POWER unto utter desolation."
She was then taking into custody by the US government...I assumed this meant they felt the USA was the greatest power, and she was a threat. I could very well be wrong on this...but that was my reasoning...in any case, that idea is a side point! :) I hope we don't get sidetracked on it!
Paul
No, I just posted about those question because they were not answered for me. They weren't given what I think we deserved. We stood by Alias through all the ambiguity and vagueness, they could have at least given us something solid and concrete in the end.
I posted this on the previous blog, but it fits here. I agree with Paul - Sloane and Irina did not have the same I motivation. It seems to me that Irina was the power behind the scenes the whole time - manipulating and striving for ultimate power. she was "The Man," she was behind Syd's torture in "Horizon" and she worked everything to achieve her own ends - from the time she married Jack until the day she died. She was obsessed with Rambaldi, no one could deny that, but more as a means to an end - world domination. Sloane, on the other hand, really believed that Rambaldi and his work would lead to immortality and ultimate peace. He just believed that the end justified the means - any means - and he paid the price for his choices. I'm reminded of the phrase, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
WHEW. I thought maybe it was just me. Ya see, I haven't exactly consistently watched Alias in ... well, years, actually. Ooo, I can hear y'all gasping. ; ) I'm definitely saving up for the ultimate DVD experience. But anyway ...
But hey. Even so, how could I pass up the opp to watch the last ep? But then, watching it, I was wondering if I shouldn't have skipped the excitment and continued the mundane task of loading the rest of my music into my iPod.
I've only posted once before on here, after reading GS's farewell to Alias post. Very nicely written. To repond to her comments about being disappointed by the finale, may I just say that, again, yes, I am also a storyteller, a published novelist actually, and as a storyteller I was completely disgusted with the lackluster writing of the finale. Both hours. The dialogue was terribly stilted, almost to the point of being laughable. The action was over-the-top unrealistic it made the acting seem generic and lifeless. (Just how did they all arrive so quickly to save Marshall and Rachel?) Almost everything bothered me, even Vaughn needing to give Syd CPR. Why would he be pounding her chest after she took such a horrible fall? Breathing, yes. Help her breathe, Michael. But don't kill her trying to save her!
Oops, I'm now into rant mode, and I don't wanna go there. But yeah. This "grande finale" didn't measure up for whatever reason. Time, I'm sure, was JJ's biggest nemesis. But I wish he and his team would have worked just a wee bit harder to overcome this nemesis and flat out get the job done in the face of it. There were several places in the finale when I almost wanted Sydney/Jen to turn and say, "Come on. Does Syd talk like this?"
I don't think we should blame ourselves for expecting too much. For five years we have been expecting good things from Alias and it has delivered above and beyond anything we could have imagined every time. But this time ... wow. The most important two hours of the show, and here we are left ... wondering.
Disgusted.
But I'm still glad to have been along for the ride.
Bring on the DVDs! : )
take care, y'all
donna fleisher
I do agree with you girlscout. Jenn promoted the finale saying all of our ?s would be answered but they WEREN'T!
I too loved moments of the finale and I could see how Irina wanted power and immortality but I just think the writers screwed up and so did J.J. by leaving the show. When he started Alias he said that he had 5 years planned out yeah my butt he did.
I still wanna know who was the Cardinal?
I think they wasted too much time on the new characters. The only character I feel they should have added was Renee and drop the other two.
I do feel empty. Gah i kinda hate the alias writers they said in the mags that the last half was planned out and that they would be the best episodes of the series but they weren't! I mean they were good but not ALIAS AWESOME!! The fans know more about what should be going on than the writers.
I still liked the finale but there are too many ?s left unanswered SHAME on the writers for leading us to believe everything would be answered.
I think I can finally understand why GirlScout was so disappointed. Truly, the ending and the mythology was not "wrapped up" beyond question. There was still a ton of ambiguity in the ending, and nothing was clear. And for this reason, I do agree, the writers did not tie up all their loose ends, and I can fully understand GirlScout's disappointment. Kudos to her for telling it like it is! :)
The writers left it up to us to dig the answers out, which while not exactly concrete, I actually enjoyed. I've had a good time figuring out the answers for myself, which is why I think I enjoyed the finale so much. It wasn't concrete, but there was enough material to make me happy with what I had come to in my head.
And really, I think that's what this whole discussion is boiling down to. Those who wanted the ambiguity gone and the answers to be clear were disappointed (and rightly so), and those who enjoyed the ambiguity enjoyed the finale (coming to a conclusion that they are satisfied with on their own). :)
dignan, i belive it showd the location of the tomb where sloane was burried. n e ways this is a theory i'd like to share with ya'll.
So i think that rambaldi's end game was to have the have a peaceful world under his rule for eternity. If you piece everything that has happend with Silvoga, last night, the telling, the prophecy. This is a break down. some what...
The Prophecy: With Syd's eggs and Rambaldi's cube they would bring back rambaldi.
Doubling proccess: They would use the brain thing to put rambaldi's brain into syd/rambaldi's child. Bring Rambaldi himself back.
Circumfrence: He'll kill everyone and start over with a select few.
Horizon: Give his select few eternal life.
The Telling: Him and his select few would life forever peacefully under his ruling.
Sydney: the only part she had to play in his end game was to carry the child that was to be him.
Haha Dark! I love it! That certainly would tie together all the seasons! That idea would make an excellent post for discussion!
It makes me wonder about the clockmaker in season 1...what did Rambaldi give him that made him live so long, but yet not be immortal? :)
Paul
ya paul, i was thinking about the clock maker too. I think that rambaldi gave him the a prototype of the rambaldi juice that made him live forever IF he didn't get hurt or killed.
GS, I do not mean to in any way defend the flops and thuds of the writers. I agree: they fouled up Irena's character and her part in the whole season. I agree: they tangled the Rambaldi-story so much over the years that it almost seemed impossible to unravel (though, I admit to being glad that they did something more than a big red ball over S'vogda).
There were some things I disagreed with you, but they are minor points. I think that maybe (only maybe, 'cause I know I am only guessing) that the inevitable disappointments caused you to withhold your 'suspension of disbelief' - or at least you (or others) may have stopped looking for the plausable reason or explanation that might bring the seeming-inconsistancies together. All you need is plausability, and no one can say it is a contradiction.
Just for instence: Little Sydney's completion of the puzzel. It is plausable that, while Jack was designing Project Christmas, she found the puzzel, put it together, and that is when he discovered just how special she is, and decided to put her through the rest of his program. It is plausable, and it maintains the integrity of the rest of the story. There may be other instances like this where you might be more satisfied with some other parts.
I know, I know. The last hour was rife with what we can only feel must have been writer's-patchwork. I do not deny it. In Fact, I expected it, and worse, to tell the truth.
Since the complete foul up of the S-3 ending and S-4 beginning, the whole show has taken turns for the worse. I have had the sinking feeling for a long time now, and I have been fairly vocal about it. Why shouldn't we have high expectations? Because they have shown us over time that they were more willing to appeal to the 11 year olds running ABC, than they were willing to hold to the integrity of what made ALIAS the best show ever made. A little compromise here... a little there... Before we knew it, everything about the show had changed except for a few key elements like the actors and their ability to make it believable.
Nevertheless, we hoped beyond hope, and we believed thier promise of a huge pay-off when we should have known better. What we all managed to love about what was left of ALIAS by the time the finale arrived - it was still there. Accepting the bothersome aspects will allow us to continue to enjoy it.
Besides, I know that some of the bothersome aspects can be hashed out by us here at Let's Talk... and it will keep us going , maybe for weeks.
Here's to looking forward to un-making the hash which the writers created. Cheers! See you all again soon.
:D
-R.
Jenn, I agree in part, but I think there were some awesome 3-dimensional moments like Carrie & Marshall in bed, Rachel & Syd torturing Peyton, and especially the scene between Jack & Syd after he was shot. And one thought concerning the difference between season finales for Seasons 1 & 2 vs. the SERIES finale is that with a season finale you don't have to wrap everything up - there's always next season to develop and expand or change direction. With the Series finale everything had to tied up or left by the wayside or ignored. There's no place for anticipation of what's to come or what might be. I think Alias ultimately suffered from some of the turns the story took during the five years - it made it virtually impossible to answer everything because some of the turns changed everything (like abandoning the Rambaldi storyline or the creation of APO or Sogovda) It became so convoluted they just couldn't go back.
"Rushed"
That's exactly it, Jenn. You got it.
GirlScout:
I discovered your Blog a few months back and have visited almost daily - thanks for the smart commentary on a truly special show.
Onto my comments about last night. As a loyal Alias fan for the entire 5 year run, I too share in your disappointment. Rather than going into all of the reasons why (as most have already been covered), I was left scratching my head and asking, "is that all they could come up with?" So many loose ends left untied; so many characters and story lines underdeveloped; so many laughable (and not in a good way) moments.
The show was not given a proper farewell either by the writers or the actors. Scenes seemed forced and unrealistic. As much as I love the idea of Syd and Vaughn being together on their beach, a much better ending would have been for Vaughn to have raised Izzy by himself...similar to Jack and Syd. There was no real drama, or angst. Two things we've come to expect from the show.
Anyway, my two cents. Again, love the blog and the various cast of blogger characters.
BristowVA
How's this for the opening of an Alias movie:
We see Syd in some disguise got to be a goofy wig involved)piecing together a modular sniper rifle. She settles in and takes aim at someone a block away standing at a podium receiving an award. We look through the scope as she takes aim, finger slowly depressing the trigger. We see the target. It's Dixon. Bang! Dixon goes down from a clean shot to the head. He's dead. Black screen and the words "One year earlier..." We're off and running.
Have you seen that they are taking down the ABC Alias board on Thursday?
I'm the most disappointed with how much everyone else seems to be disappointed.
As much as we may want to, we can't change a thing about the finale. We may as well piece together as much as we can that the writers (sadly) left hanging, and remember our dear Alias fondly and as a unique show that broke a television barrier.
Just how amazing was the music in the finale? Listening to it alone is enough for me to shed a tear or two..Now, I'm not musically gifted, though my brother is so I might have picked up on his 'ear' for music, but even if I havent, it was beautiful.
Oh, one thing I was confused about (well, maybe not one, but its the only one I dont even have an idea of how to answer) was why did Irina reach for the sphere, fully knowing the glass would break and she would fall? Was it the hope that she wouldnt die from the fall and be able to obtain immortality?
Just thought this was probably the best place for an answer..thanks!
Final Thought a la Jerry Springer:
Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all...and I truly loved Alias with all my heart (I still do and always will) I think it gave all of us a little something special, and thank goodness for DVDs so we can carry that love with us forever :)
well, its 1:20am where I am, so I think its time for the computer to be shut down. G'night all.
This is my take on the intriguingly ambiguous culmination to the Rambaldi arc that seems to have baffled some fans who were expecting something else...like a clearer resolution:
The Prophecies
As open to interpretation as they are, all of Rambaldi's prophecies are relatively exact indicating him being present at the events he describes – or – having access/being acquainted with somebody who witnessed them.
Given the context specific prophecies regarding the sunrise & Mount Subasio, the Horse in the finale of S5, Page 47 and its hidden message, Irina's genocidal intentions etc it is my contention that Rambaldi’s source of this information is the immortal Sloane.
Buried alive for Eternity ?
Within the world of Alias, we all know interest and lust for Rambaldi’s devices and prophecies will never die. Some time in the near or distant future some Rambaldi enthusiast will eventually unearth/excavate Rambaldi’s tomb and find Sloane. Perhaps, after having the opportunity of having many years to ponder and have genuine remorse for his many crimes he becomes a penitent and almost mystical Sloane, like the old knight in the finale of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, or just simply a deranged one who will meet the man who will become Rambaldi and impart his very specific and unique knowledge of the prophecies. Making Sloane a gibbering evil loon upon excavation would make no sense and cheapen Jack's death. Jack sacrificed his life to give Sloane the chance to ponder his mistakes and sins for a very, very long time alone and in the dark... This said, Sloane being as clever as he is would expect eventually for somebody to excavate the tomb. Question is would he be sane/or penitent when that day long in the future arrives.
The futuristic Aspects of Rambaldi's Creations and the Immortal Sloane
Remember that all of Rambaldi’s innovations such as the Horizon, Big Red Ball, silly green goop, The Double Helix, the Gene map in the 5th prophet, and De Regno Heart to name but a few are very, very advanced by modern technological standards ;) Perhaps the person who became Rambaldi, intrigued by Sloane studies and reverse engineers the effects of Sloane’s Immortality to create the basis of the knowledge which constituted the 5th Prophet document and the double helix crap. Obviously this individual who is probably the only person clever enough anywhere to do this would have to have an accident/experiment/plot device which would send them back in time to begin the end of the cycle/circle, perhaps to stop nefarious types in his near-future time from acquiring his secrets! If Rambaldi can discover immortality in the World of Alias, is time travel any less plausible?
Back in the past Rambaldi would be aware that they would need create and facilitate all manner of artefacts to have the events involving Sydney that led to Sloane’s eventual entrapment and Irina’s defeat to occur. Thereby completing the referred to 'circle' which creates the prevailing context for the rise of Rambaldi.
Rambaldi's eventual ambivalence towards Immortality
Interestingly, Rambaldi although allowing his allies such as the clockmaker, the Rose, and even perhaps Kill Bill Conrad extended life to facilitate their roles in his/Sloane’s prophecies regarding Sydney did not choose immortality himself. Probably being aware of and regretting the dire consequences it had on Sloane and Sydney’s lives and potentially the whole of humanity.
The Rose guy in episode 15 strongly suggested that Rambaldi considered his discovery and quest for immortality a massive mistake, but was adamant in his conversation with Sydney that nothing could prevent from happening the abomination against nature/God which ‘The 12’ and more significantly Sloane achieved via immortality. This hypothesis indicates Rambaldi knew Sloane would become immortal regardless of whatever happened. This indicates in itself hindsight or an acquaintance with Sloane in the future, as only Jack knows for certain that Sloane was now immortal. However, Jack helpfully gave him all the time in the world to ponder his sins and suffer for them. Jack sacrifices his life to give Sloane the chance to ponder his mistakes and sins for a very long time.
The Limited number of Episodes...
There are a number of additional production related matters that are also worth taking into consideration.
Given how noticeably rushed the final ep was, and JJ’s cryptic comments in interviews that they would have liked to have put more Rambaldi into the final eps if they had more time and episodes, there must have been a wider notion of what the deal was behind Rambaldi and his improbably accurate prophecies and wild inventions. Hopefully, the DVDs will help to clarify the matter.
I suspect JJ knows in his head who Rambaldi really was/is (aside from being the Mcguffin man)... The question is will he ever tell us on screen via Alias spin offs/movies or will anybody ABC/a movie studio let him? Let hope so one day! :)
An Alias movie or spin off with Sydney and Isabel kicking some butt and providing a better sense of closure/explanations (though still slightly ambiguous) regarding Rambaldi, his improbable prophecies and inventions, whilst somehow featuring Sloane al Ghul would be a very welcome prospect in a few years time.
Disappointment. I don't know what to say... so I'll just ask a few questions.
1 - Does the prophecy make sense? I thought the greatest power was immortality... so, was it Irina the one depicted in the end?
2 - How about Syd disappearing for two years at the end of season 2? Why were her eggs so important?
3 - Why Irina wasn't immortal though she had the orb? Otherwise, why reaching for it on the breaking glass? And if that was what she was looking for, why she gave it to Sloane?
How about all those clues and discrepancies left along the episodes? The cryogenic chamber, the microchips inside Renee and Vaughn, Lauren's words before dying...
Maybe, in the end, "the truth takes time" thing was actually intended for us fans, and not for Syd! Maybe we'll never know. And maybe we've been expecting too much and we've been into details more than the writers.
Marcello.
Ihaaheim,
"Rambaldi- All of this talk about how Rambaldi is good and wanted peace is bothering me now. I don’t think Rambaldi was evil but what the heck did he think would happen by messing with the natural order of life?"
I belive your right and the last three eps seem to vindicate that Rambaldi regretted a lot of what he had done and what would be done in his name. Yet he was as much a victim of the cycle he was part of. Once he and Sloane let the Genie out of the bottle he was powerless to completely stop it. Rambaldi instead he used unwitting proxies like Sydney and Jack to foil Irina and the 12 while at the same time manipulating Sloane via Conrad to fulfil the prophecies, and in my hypothesis ultimately create the eventual context for his meeting with Sloane in the future which will lead him back in time. In classic time travel story nonsense Rambaldi would have to go back in time if possible to manufacture this context or else there'd be a temporal paradox. Syd and co trying to stop the foundations of time and reality from ripping apart by helping Rambaldi go back in time might explain his apparent acquaintance and mild affection for her which is hinted at by the Rose and the clockmaker. Perhaps, Sydney is destined to meet Rambaldi but not quite yet and hopefully on screen at sometime in the future.
Marcello,
Here's my take on your valid questions.
1 - Does the prophecy make sense? I thought the greatest power was immortality... so, was it Irina the one depicted in the end?
I guess this is deliberately vague/ambigious, but is there any guarantee Irina knew quite what to do with the globe thing. Irina for all her guile was revealed as being somewhat delusional in terms of her intentions.
The main parts of the prophecy I believe do make sense, of sorts. Sydney stopped Irina, and the Rose's prediction about something terrible against nature happening which could not be stopped was Sloane's immortality. Also some of the prophecies were so context specific they had to have been witnessed 1st hand by Rambaldi or related to him by another ie Sloane.
2 - How about Syd disappearing for two years at the end of season 2? Why were her eggs so important?
The Covenant were in some ways a red herring, and Yelena had some supremely screwed up ideas about Rambaldi's intentions. She probably thought she had Irina's role in the Rambadli scheme of things.
Rambaldi's notions of resurrection were either sloppy s3 writing or an idea that he toyed with and then abandoned. Or most probably a combination of both. As the last eps indicate, Rambaldi died a natural death ambivalent to his greatest known invention. So I guess sloppy plotting coupled with hazy Rambaldi intentions and nutty followers equals confusion! I have a hunch each season's Rambaldi specific arc was pragmatically constructed that if the show was cancelled during the season things could kind of be explained through it.
3 - Why Irina wasn't immortal though she had the orb? Otherwise, why reaching for it on the breaking glass? And if that was what she was looking for, why she gave it to Sloane?
Perhaps she didn't know quite what to do with it ? Sloane really wasn't an issue to her, she appeared to have faith in its powers whatever they really were. Her misguided faith being as great as Sloane's.
How about all those clues and discrepancies left along the episodes? The cryogenic chamber, the microchips inside Renee and Vaughn, Lauren's words before dying...
Good questions! Lauren could be referring to the Project Blackbird/Jack's bad arc which JJ had dropped. She could also be metaphorically inferring that Sydney ultimately works for Rambaldi by undoing the harm his works have done in the wrong hands. This would imply the Covenant were somewhat conscious of twisting his legacy.
Rambaldi's ridiculously advanced work on genes (you can't tell me he's not from the near-future) in the 5th Prophet probably inspired the double helix clone crap as a by product. The cryo tube bloke Desantis was an unsuccessful attempt 30 years earlier to apply the process. This in itself shows how relatively advanced the 12's work was back then.
I used closed captioning to determine that Irina told Syd before their final fight that Rambaldi is LIFE. Then we see Sloane revive.
I think Sloane's plan/vision was to partake of the immortality fluid and then use it on Rambaldi's body to bring him back.
Did Irina manage to use any of the fluid from the sphere before she hit the ground? If so, then she may revive also.
Thanks for your answers, Daniel.
Yeah, it's bad enough that Sloane could make a come back as an immortal. We DO NOT want Irina to do it:)
Ihaaheim
You have a good point about Bill's mysterious watch, and the chips. In an attempt to rationalise them I'd say Bill being a good follower of Rambaldi may have been privy to knowledge or prophecies regarding his son and Sydney which he had to help fulfill in bringing down the 12. Its also clear now that he was protecting Nadia from the 12 and Irina when he handed her over to Yelena.
Interestingly, Bill's workbook that Micheal finds in s4 had very complex equations about physics, not explicitly genetics. Did Rambaldi leave clues in other works to the theoretical concept of time travel that Bill and other members of the Prophet 5 workgroup might have picked up on amongst their wider Rambaldi studies? The fascination with time, and his watch stopping the day Vaughan met Sydney are intriguing clues or at least ambiguities...
I just saw your initial post and I have to say that I agree 100%. The writers seemed to feel that they could resolve everything within the last half hour. It didn't work, and left way too many plot loopholes, such as:
1- Where does Irina's spontaneous decision to nuke London and Washington come from? Its unclear why she would suddenly decide to do this or how it would increase her power. It's also unclear why she would trade the Horizon to Sloane, knowing how likely he would be to give it back, just to get her hands on the said missiles.
2-If Jack has figured out that Sloane will be immortal upon contact with the Rambaldi fluid, why does he leave the cave with Sydney and pretend as though nothing has happened. Why would the two not try to find some way to stop him then and there. Why would Sydney, who knows at least as much about Rambaldi as Jack does not realize it as well.
3-In the same vein, wouldn't Jack inform Sydney of what he was planning to do, even though it might be too late for her to stop him from doing it. Because otherwise we could expect that Sydney would find out that Jack hadn't been picked up by the medical team. She would realize that the Tomb had been blown up, and might then go searching for her father (dead or alive) in the ruins, and thus end up releasing Sloane.
3- Why would Irina, after years of wanting to help Sydney, try to kill her own daughter. Why would she partner with Sloane after he had killed her other daughter.
4-The screwy timelines throughout the entire episode. How does Sydney manage to get from the cave to Hong Kong and end up right in front of her mother only seconds after Sark, with no initial knowledge of the location? How is it that Sloane wakes up at exactly the same time as this event, which must have happened at least a few hours after he had been shot. How is it that Jack, who was on point of death when Sydney left him, only then comes into the cave.
I don't want to sound too critical, but there's one huge inconsistency. When Irina and Sydney are fighting on the terrace, Irina is seen on the breaking glass and there's no orb next to her! The next scene is about Jack and Sloane. Back on the terrace the Horizon is right there in front of Irina, like magic.
Even when they both fell from the window, the orb could not be seen falling, though we give for granted that Syd was holding it in her hand after hitting her mother.
I just want to point out how forced the finale was: the Horizon had to be there so that Irina could die... so let's just put it on the less resistant glass of the world. Oh, come on!
They could have done much better things. Sorry, I had to vent!
Um, well, stumbling upon question #2, I would think that Jack--dead Sloane or not--would have wanted to blow up the Rambaldi tomb anyway.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much did Jack followed Sloane into those thirty years of his mad quest, but I was pretty sure Jack understood enough to know that everything wasn't impossible (i.e., double Syd, double Francie, double Irina, big giant orange ball on top of a city). And Rambaldi was the cause of all of how much his daughter suffered, so I only assumed that he wanted to blow the whole thing up, so that should anything happen, he wouldn't let Sloane get away, and that he end up in a very cool death scene...or for as little chance as possible to get doubled.
Of course, I'm kidding about the last part, but like many viewers, I also felt that the last ep was a rush.
I totally agree with every point except that about Jack. Jack, wounded, and fairly certain that death would come before the medivac, waited outside the tomb without having "it all figured out." He saw Sloane shot several times in the body and once in the head. He was sure Sloane was dead. During the wait for a medivac, he suddenly heard Sloane's voice from within (He was talking to the phantasm of Nadia). Realizing that they left him in the Rambaldi-juice, Jack grabs the explosives (who cares from where?), nad heads in to finish the job. Seeing Sloane standing there in perfect health and no bullet hole, he concludes that the rumor of Rambaldi's immortality-giving... stuff (for lack of an accurate term) was true after all. Thus, Sloane is able to say, "You know you can't hurt me, Jack."
It makes perfect, uhh, sense... (Excuse the abuse of that expression).
-R.
lhaaheim
I've been lurking for ages reading and enjoying the comments on nearly all the posts. I guess after seeing the final ep I was finally spurred into action by the ambiguities. I watched the final ep with another big Alias fan and at the end we were "huh" about Rambaldi. We both thought in some ways that although the Jack/Sloane/Irina arc is over, another tale with Sydney and Rambaldi has yet to be told... :)
Interestingly, if Rambaldi was from the future his inventions thus far revealed indicate no willingness to go back to his own time. Perhaps his time travel was an accident or one way deal. Hiding his discoveries in the past protected his own original era and at the same created the context for him meeting Sloane, understanding the propehcies and how to reverse-engineer immortality. In a sense this creates a closed loop or circle. Rambaldi's original era is spared the implications of his discoveries by hiding them obliquely in the past in such a way that facillitates his eventual acquaintance with Sloane which enables him to invent some of them in the first place. Aside from the obvious sense of his fate as poetic justice, Sloane was the only witness to many of Rambaldi's key prophecies and cryptic messages. Killing him off completely really would have closed the door to rationally explaining Rambaldi. For example, he leaves a secret message, presumably for Sloane in Page 47 which launches him on the final part of his demented quest to the tomb and immortality. A journey the Rose told Sydney could not stopped.
Perhaps, one of the original concepts for Rambaldi was time travel but the production staff thought the film Tomb Raider with the concept of secret societies piecing together mysterious artefacts to control time was too similar.
I think your right about Jack wanting to see with his own eyes what had happened to Sloane and also destroy the tomb for a variety of reasons such as preventing it from being used again, penance for how the Rambaldi phenomenon blighted Sydney's and his life etc.
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